As those who read my posts here, and on JMO – Sound Off, know, one of my biggest issues with our current government is total lack of action regarding illegal immigration. It has been brought up to me on several occasions the totally erroneous statement that “it would cost too much to round up and deport these criminals out of the country”. I have yet to see figures that prove this by those that hold to that argument. I, on the other hand, have seen proof of it being completely the opposite - it costs us more to allow them to stay than it would to deport them all – all 12-20 million of them.
The Council on Immigration Studies estimated in 2004 the annual cost of illegal immigration to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 BILLION dollars, that was three years ago. This study is reflected by other studies such as the 1997 National Research study, the 1998 Urban Institute study, and even the Inspectors Generals office of the Treasury. Research findings where gathered from the Census Bureau and the National Research council. Also I might remind those reading this that at the time of this study there were an estimated 8.7 million illegal aliens in the country and that has nearly doubled since then and continues to grow at an estimated 500,000 more a year, thereby increasing the studies estimate to 20 Billion plus a year.
For those interested in reading the study: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
These studies deal primarily with the direct effects of illegal immigration as it relates to taxes, welfare, and job loss for legal American’s, however there are other hidden cost’s that are not taken into account. Some of those not mentioned in this or other studies include the misuse of hospital services, primarily on the border, but are now happening all over the U.S. in which these social leaches are using medical services and NEVER paying for it. The extreme criminal element from street gang violence and drug dealing (supported, by the way, by subversive terrorists groups like MEChA) as well as murders, and rapes has cost millions of dollars in destruction and loss of life. Add to this the FACT that 30% of the current U.S. prison population is illegal immigrants primarily from Mexico, of which the American taxpayer is paying for their incarceration. Add these all up and we are looking at an estimated 340 BILLION a year, a hundred billion more than the most critical liberal think tanks claim it would cost to depart them all.
And that is still not the entire picture, each year dozens of law enforcement people are killed or severely injured by these malcontents and asinine laws like the current law in Los Angeles California which restricts law enforcement from going after these people for immigration violations, further prohibit the just imprisonment and expulsion of these individuals. These laws are also repeated in cities like New York, Chicago, and even San Diego, Houston, and Boston, making our major cities virtual havens of crime.
Which brings me to my next point the “how” would I propose to round up and deport theses people if they are all “underground”. But first it is important to bring up the liberal side of the argument that claims it would be too expensive to validate my earlier statement. Their argument is based on “studies” by liberal think tanks like the Center for American Progress, that have projected a cost of some 230 to 250 billion over a five year period and on the surface that would seen to validate their argument however they are basing this on employing “mass deportation”, with only a small change in strengthening law enforcement practices, which is NOT what I am advocating, Even they admit that with just this ONE change the result would be a 10-20% voluntary exodus out of the country by illegals.
Now let’s look at what can be done to truly effect “voluntary” deportation. First we must enact legislation that turns around several of the laws in place that enable the illegals, such as the ridiculous restrictions on local law enforcement to go after illegal immigrants. Second we need to refine, and redefine the 14th amendment that makes any child born in the U.S. an automatic citizen. Third we need to increase and enforce fines and penalties on employers that hire illegals. We also need to mandate that anyone using certain hospital and/or welfare services, other than emergencies, must have some form of proof of legal residence in the U.S. such as a valid drivers license. These steps alone will not totally correct the problem, but will probably increase voluntary deportation by another 20-30%, or even more, meaning that almost half those here illegally will have no more reason to be here, as they can no longer suck off the government teat, and will have to return to where they came from.
As for the seriously criminal element like the rapists, murderers, terrorists, and drug dealers we treat them as we would ANY criminal, once found guilty they should be incarcerated and when completing their sentence they be immediately deported with the caveat that if caught back in the country illegally they will be subject to the death penalty. Of course we also need to erect a truly protective fence between our southern borders and increase our border enforcement on both the northern and southern borders, or all of this will be a meaningless exorcise.
For some these recommendations may seem severe, but we are talking about the cultural, and economic survival of our country as well as our sovereignty. We should be treating this as we would any invasion, as that is just what this is - an invasion - by those only interested in pillaging our nation of it’s wealth and for many like those that are loyal to the Mexico First extremists like MEChA to also conquer our nation, and turn it into a subdivision of Mexico.
11 comments:
Wow, a ten billion dollar problem! Just think, we could pay for two months of the Iraq War with that money!
I do support your proposed change to the 14th amendment. However, your other recommendations fall well short of your dubious goal of “voluntary” deportation.
You would hold employer’s feet to the fire if they hire undocumented workers. Ok! So, then what? The undocumented workers simply obtain forged documents. They do this today quite easily. Do you hold employers liable for hiring a worker with seemingly authentic papers? Or would you expect employers to hire private detectives to investigate every job applicant? What level of due diligence is expected? What would this cost the economy?
Such thin gruel for the anti-immigrant mob from an otherwise deep thinker!
And…which “certain” non-emergency medical services would you withhold from the undocumented? If you concede to treating all emergency ailments and some non-emergency ones, how much money will you actually save? Will there be a list of ailments that medical professionals will not treat? Would an undocumented patient have to be bleeding profusely to be treated? How profusely? What rate of blood loss that you would be comfortable with? How do you handle the conflict with a doctor’s sworn Hippocratic Oath? Would you punish a doctor or nurse for not withholding treatment?
Also, just to be clear, the so-called Council on Immigration Studies (CIS) you cite and link to, posing as a “fair-minded” think tank, is nothing more than just another outlet for the extremist right-wing, anti-immigration organization, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). Or does the Scaife Family not ring any bells for you?
You really should gather your "facts" from a broader spectrum of web sites, or maybe read the source documents yourself and draw your own conclusions. Stop parroting the extreme conservative wing of the National Republican Party! Do your due diligence!!
Anonymous I suggest that YOU do your due diligence. Yes I quote statements from CIS and yes they are a conservative think tank, but you fail to mention (or recognize) in your criticism of my article that I also quoted the FAR left wing think tank Center for American Progress, along with the U.S. Census Bureau and other sources, which I did read, and researched to compare both those organizations conclusions.
Secondly your THIN argument about my emergency room recommendation is a typical splitting hairs argument. Yes there will have to be some guidelines as to what would be considered “emergency” treatment, but anyone with half a brain would know that I was talking about those illegals that go to an emergency room with a head cold, not a major ailment. Showing documentation that you are a resident of the U.S. would not be a problem for someone like that, however if someone came in from a car accident or a visible critical condition they should and would be attended to without providing this documentation.
As for the employer issue, yes there will be a SMALL percentage of illegals that will get fake documentation to work, and as you say it is already happening, however it will make the process more difficult - even the liberal think tanks agree with my conclusion that actions like those I mentioned can and do have an impact, so I suggest instead of cherry picking and taking my statements out of context that if you truly want to debate the issue YOU read the source material (as I have by the way) and come to your own conclusions rather than parroting the Left wing pro-illegal (criminal) immigrant stand.
None of the recommendations I mentioned would alone necessarily force complete or immediate voluntary deportation, but together they would be a catalyst for the departure of many illegals. Once again as I DID state, had you bothered to read my whole article with an open mind rather than coming into it attempting to discount it, even these actions will not be the whole answer, but the combination of those mentioned along with proper law enforcement would be most productive.
And even with all those actions being implemented it will not stop illegal immigration 100%. The problem is people like you, that although seemingly intelligent, disparage attempts to correct the problem, and sit on your hands doing nothing. If you expended half the energy you did in discounting my article and came up with alternatives other than what I mentioned than I would be more impressed with your comment, however your response is as I said typical and quite shallow.
Here’s my point: This is not a fiscal issue, as your primary source (“The High Cost of Cheap Labor” - CIS), which btw was the essay that got you salivating in the first place, is arguing. And besides, your math does not work. And besides, it is irrelevant to your argument – you don’t advocate mass deportation, according to your own essay, so the relative costs do not matter.
First, to rebut CIS, a ten billion dollar problem is hardly a blip on the fiscal radar. I am sure you and the Scaife family find this statement hard to believe, and if there was a competent executive branch in the federal government, perhaps ten billion dollar problems would be at the top of the fiscal list. However, your precious conservatives that run the federal administration, and who up to very recently, ran congress for more than a decade, have bigger problems, namely a nine trillion dollar debt – that’s a 9 with 12 zeros after it. So CIS flunkies just wrote all those words fretting about a financial issue that is barely one tenth of one percent of their own (and your) Republican national debt.
So, this is hardly a fiscal issue, although **!TEN BILLION DOLLARS!** certainly with resonates with the less informed. That’s a lot of lottery scratch tickets!!
Second, the title of your essay is “Cost of Illegal Immigration” and your thesis apparently is this (and I quote): “it costs us more to allow them to stay than it would to deport them all” . If I do the math and use the numbers you provide, then we’d have to endure 25 more years of this “fiscal problem” to match the cost of mass involuntary deportation (maybe ten billion is now twenty, maybe not – you have no source info for that – plus you have not sourced nor dated the CAP estimate of $250 billion that you insist you quoted – maybe $250 billion is now $500 billion). However, it is all confusing since in your fifth paragraph you say you don’t advocate mass deportation at all. So that is comforting. If you want to tighten up some existing laws, knock yourself out. Good luck with that, what with all the corporate interests running the government that you and the Republicans support so strongly.
As for the employment issue, any undocumented worker savvy enough to make it to the U.S. is savvy enough to get forged papers. This is more common than you suspect and not so hard. To solve this, maybe there should be a national identification card for every citizen? How do you fall on that issue, mi amigo, hmmm?
As far as splitting hairs on the medical care issue, I apologize. I did not understand that you were strictly a “big picture” guy and were not considering the practical ramfications of your vision (or even whether any significant money would be saved). If you are comfortable withholding needed medical care from an ailing patient, then you have the right to that opinion, although I thought we lived in a Christian nation.
Also, you could have answered maybe one of my questions.
First of all Anonymous I want to thank you for showing everyone that reads my blog that those opposed to deportation of illegals have no argument. Once again in your response you give NO source or statistics to prove my numbers wrong, merely stating that they don’t add up is meaningless.
Second of all I find it quite humorous that you consistently equate me with the neo-cons in office when in fact it is you that sound more like them than I do. I am opposed to the neo-con position (and yours) that we cannot deport these criminal invaders. In fact I am not, nor ever have been a Republican, I have only voted for a Republican three times in my 36 years as a registered voter and I have voted in every election since I registered when I was 18. So there goes another of your unfounded and quite erroneous accusations right down the toilet.
This will be my last response to you until you can come up with statistics and legitimate sources refuting my numbers. Good day to you sir.
Hold on a second, now. I’m not the one with the blog. You presented an argument. I am simply pointing out that (A) the so-called cost of illegal immigration is tiny and a fraction of the cost of forced mass deportation, according to your OWN essay, (B) you do not even advocate forced mass deportation according to your OWN essay (I guess you changed your mind), and (C) you can go ahead and tighten up some laws, but good luck!
Also, you may not be an admitted neo-con, whatever that is, but I’m not the one presenting conservative arguments to the world via the internet. Who do you think these views support? The Democrats? Who’s web sites are you sourcing as the primary basis for your argument? Liberal ones? Who’s most likely to disagree with you? Republicans? No and no and no. So while you may not call yourself Republican or vote Republican, the Republicans thank you nonetheless, as you aid and abet their cause as surely as Fox News, but maybe with a slightly smaller audience. You can call yourself whatever you want, that holds no water with me. The fact is, your opinions are more consistent with the Republican party national platform. Good for you, I guess, but here’s your problem – the political party you are inadvertantly supporting are also protecting the corporate interests that desperately need this labor source.
Personally the illegal immigrant issue doesn’t get me all that charged up. It’s not high on my list. Frankly, the Mexican gardener working in Mitt’s yard doesn’t bother me so much as the well-trained engineer from India here legally, but I’ve been competing against them for ten years or more and holding my own. I think the undocumented immigrant worker community in general is a positive for the country, despite the problems, which are not unique to this or any other underclass.
I’d support some of the changes you advocate, however, like modifying the 14th amendment. I’d also consider a national ID card (you never answered that question, did you – and you NEVER will) which might solve a big chunk of the problem. I think I would fix health care so there are not so many uninsured American citizens and perhaps tighten rules around discretionary medical care for undocumented persons.
I think we are too generous as a nation, but that comes from America’s great sense of compassion and our great wealth. I guess I am saying we have the capacity to absorb these folks and we’re a soft touch. So, we do get taken advantage of by lots of folks, undocumented or otherwise, who know how to job the system. But, I don’t lose sleep over it and it would not be my topic du jour if I should find myself writing a blog.
But you know what? I think you really want mass, forced deportation, to round these folks up, put ‘em in boxcars, and ship ‘em back to their native countries. That does not interest me at all, and in fact, is a bit frightening speaking as an American. But, if you do think that, and I doubt you’d deny it again, then why don’t you just write it, instead of beating around the bushes with these marginal measures. What are you, some kind of bleeding heart?
Also, why does it take so freakin’ long for my comment to appear? Are you not even paying attention to your own blog??
Okay Anonymous I’ll try to answer your last comment ‘cause you make me laugh.
First of all the reason it takes some time to post your responses and answer them is that I have more than one web site to maintain and also have a full time job that does not permit me to spend every waking minute on my Blog. However, I do allow your comments to be posted and try to respond as best I can.
Second you are correct that this is my Blog, which gives me the right to express my opinion, or not, on any subject I wish. As someone who chose to comment on my position you have not provided any qualified rebuttal, but merely tried to discount my statements taking them out of context, twisting them to fit your position, and by associative condemnation equating my position with those nasty ol’ Republican’s.
But as I said you make me laugh so I will try to answer your questions, even those you I would never answer, with some qualification though. ;-)
Hmmm, where do I start, oh ya a national ID card - so you vant to see mein papers – get serious Anonymous - NO, emphatically NO national I.D. If we enforce existing law regarding illegals and allow our local law enforcement to prosecute these criminals, half the battle would be won.
This leads me to your question (or is it a statement) about my supposed changing of my position on mass deportation. Here is where some qualification and definition comes into play. I am not for a cattle drive (mass roundup) of illegals that WOULD cost too much money. However I am in favor of a measured and systematic removal of the majority of illegals and stopping the influx of more coming into the country.
As I stated before if certain logical practices are implemented like the redefining of the 14th amendment, allowing local law enforcement to do their job, and removal of entitlement programs for illegals, and stricter and enforced (key word there) penalties on employers hiring illegals, you would find a mass exodus of the worst of the worst that are causing the largest cost to the American taxpayer. Secondly once the criminal element has served their time they should be immediately deported, with the caveat that if they are caught returning to the country they will suffer the death penalty, you will find that approximately half the illegals now in the country would be gone and those that may have been thinking about coming here changing their minds.
As for the 10 billion dollars you keep bringing up as a benchmark to support your argument, that it is mere pittance it relation to the cost of deportation, that was the number from the GAO after their estimated figures to the cost in entitlements of the illegal alien population in 2002. It was based on the governments estimation that they had spent 26 billions in social services, welfare, food stamps, SSI, etc. and that they where again estimating that of the entire illegal population 16 billion was paid into the system through taxes – which by the way I question for a number of reasons, a. the original amount is far below the real amount and b. how do they know what taxes are being paid by illegals if there is supposedly no way of tracking them - one of the arguments for the gov. not expelling them. – But I went with that number, an obviously contrived low figure, to make a point.
Here is the point, that is merely the tip of the iceberg, as I said before; individual state cost for education alone (according to the U.S. Department of Education figures) comes to ANOTHER 28 billion a year. Add to that cost of Federal prison incarceration of 2.2 billion a year, not included in the original 26 billion, and the cost of unpaid healthcare, which has cost a number of hospitals all along the SW border to close (I know this from first hand accounts - I work in the healthcare industry) Not only were there millions lost in healthcare services, but now American citizens that once held jobs in these hospitals were put out of work.
That brings us to the jobs lost category that again is not in that 10 billion you keep referring to. According to a special CNN report (definitely not a conservative media outlet) there is approximately 200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages caused by illegal immigrants. And last in my list (but not the last of the expenses of illegal aliens in the country) is the amount of remittances back to the countries of their origin; we are looking at 45 Billion in 2006 alone.
Seeing as you had a hard time adding up the numbers in my first post I have added them up for you here: We are looking at a MINIMUM of 308.2 Billion dollars a year.
I hope that clarifies things for you. As for me helping the Republican's I would suggest you look at the vast majority of Republican's in office especially the two most visual, the President himself and John McCain neither of which agree with my position to eliminate the illegal population and to build a REAL fence to stop future illegal immigration.
To answer your query on what a neo-con is they are the majority of Republican's in office today - the "new conservatives" or "compassionate conservatives". In my book they are nothing more than liberal lite. Both Dems and Repubs in office today have grown the government, the neo-cons with G.W. Bush as their front man has grown the government by 20% over that of his predecessor Clinton. So to say that I in anyway am of the same cloth as these buffoons is not only inaccurate but insulting.
First, I want to apologize for the tone of my comment on your posting of responses. I meant it in jest, but now that I see it, it looks harsh and I would like to retract. I appreciate your good nature despite this (and the other petty insults!).
I know what a neo-con is, or was, and was trying to make a point that it seems in flux. According to Wikipedia, you are not a neo-con, but rather a Pat Buchanan conservative, a so-called ”Paleoconservative”. Boy, do you have an uphill battle! If you agree with Wikipedia definitions on Neo-conservatism and Paleoconservatism, perhaps we can use those as a baseline going forward and I’ll stop labeling you a Dick Cheney Towel Boy. “Paleo” seems to fit the evolutionary scale of your conservatism quite well.
Anyways, you are clearly selectively choosing your financial numbers regarding the cost of undocumented workers and most of it is bogus. Most undocumented workers are working, with almost every adult male undocumented alien having a job. Let me repeat: almost every adult male undocumented alien has a job. More than half pay all their taxes: 55%-60% are fully on the books, which includes paying for social security and unemployment insurance that they will never qualify for. Even your CIS.org says they paid $16 billion in taxes in 2002. This is simply fact. Look it up. Sorry!
I will agree that 12 million illegals is unprecedented, but they are here for a reason. Most come for the job opportunities and most are working. If undocumented workers disappeared overnight, a notion you creepily endorse, business would grind to a halt in many sectors. You know it, and I know it. The undocumented workforce is 4% of the total, about 7 million workers. That’s significant should they become unavailable. Crops would go unharvested, many construction projects would grind to a halt, factories would stop, slaughterhouses would close, hotels and restaurant tables would stay dirty, janitorial services would cease to exist. This is undeniable.
Inflation would skyrocket as the cost of business is driven through the roof. Cheap labor would now come at a premium. How is that a good thing? What is the economic impact there? Hundreds of billions of dollars. Don’t forget, there are not so many uneducated and unskilled native-born Americans any more. Only 10% of males drop out of high school now. We’re more educated as a nation. These days, very few people raise their children to be janitors or lawn mowers or chamber maids. And, businesses cannot grow without an adequate supply of low-skilled labor. In fact, these undocumented workers have been the engine that has driven the economy forward. It’s a tough truth, but there it is. And you have no answer for this.
How would you replace these workers, Mr. Cambio? What is the alternative? There is only one, according to your own CIS.org: Increase productivity. In other words, replace the cheap labor provided by undocumented workers with automation. Otherwise, there just are nowhere near enough willing, native-born Americans to fill these jobs. And no one thinks that these 7 million workers can be replaced by Americans. No one credible at least, and I dare you to find one source. Actually there is a second option: these jobs would move overseas wherever they could. How can that be a positive?
So, your 300 billion price tag is bogus for many reasons, but also for the reason that it does not account for the economic benefit to the nation. Think about it. These 7 million workers allowed businesses to grow and thrive, for new businesses to start, and for the economy to grow. What is that worth? We needed a large unskilled labor force and didn’t have one. I say it is a good deal for everyone.
But more specifically, your numbers are so biased and misleading as to border on the ridiculous. Let’s take your statement, “individual state cost for education alone (according to the U.S. Department of Education figures) comes to ANOTHER 28 billion a year.” Let’s be honest, you swiped this from the extremist anti-immigration FAIR web site, not the U.S. government. This number is misleading in that it includes more than the cost of illegal alien children. It includes the cost of the legal children of illegal adults, those born here, and they are constitutionally entitled to this education. You may not like it, but you don’t get to choose who is an American and who is not and these costs are fairly well now FIXED – you can’t solve this. I’d say $10 billion cost to education for illegal alien children is more like it and a quick Google will confirm that is a reasonable estimate.
But your big ticket item in this boondoggle of a theory is the $200 billion in so-called suppressed wages. Without this, your entire financial premise is dead. And here is why it is dead: The $200 billion figure was mentioned by Lou Dobbs in a CNN interview, which he did not source. You and every other anti-immigrant blogger has picked up this estimate and treated it as gospel. It is not gospel, it is an offhand comment made by a right-wing television commentator. In fact, if you Google the phrase “$200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.”, you will find over 1,100 web sites with this exact text. Mr. Cambio, you get an “F” for originality.
So besides being unsubstantiated and the flabby hook upon which the lazy blogosphere hangs its hat, is the $200 billion figure true? Undocumented workers do suppress wages, mostly the high school dropout, to the tune of 10% or so of income, perhaps $10 billion a year. So, stop using the $300 billion a year figure as it is probably closer to $50 billion, still big but more than offset by the gains to the economy including increased demand, higher GNP, and new jobs for skilled workers.
As for your death penalty solution, I was ignoring that, as it was such a crackpot notion I was hoping I could simply deal with the inconsistencies of your main argument. But since you resurrected it, my only comment is that it is such an offensive and fringe opinion, that if you want to be taken serious, you would be better off keeping it to yourself.
You crack me up Annon, first you apologize for your insults than start right in again. No worries I have a thick skin.
Associating me with Pat Buchanan is a compliment, although I know you meant it otherwise. My political bent leans more in his direction than that of the current Republican liberals, and I am proud of that. The Paleo thing is an interesting associative attack on patriotism and American historical culture. I suppose you would also classify Thomas Jefferson as a Paleo-conservative? You would probably deny that, but in fact that is what you are doing.
Okay, back to the meat and potatoes of your argument that most undocumented males pay taxes - you must be a white collar worker segregated from the real world otherwise you would know that is such a crock of crap. The vast majority of “undocumented workers” are not paid according to the normal parameters that would garner taxes. First of all many are paid under the table, in cash, for obvious reasons, that they don’t wish to be traced as ILLEGAL by ICE through the IRS. The other trick is to have a sympathetic or enticed individual to receive the pay for all the illegals in a specific company and he cashes the check, doles out the money, and thereby IRS audits are avoided.
Next you claim that I endorse the “overnight” disappearance of the illegal work force. Do you not bother to read my posts or responses? I NEVER have advocated or said that they should or could be eliminated overnight. It can and will be a lengthy process even with all the recommendations I made were to be instituted. Also history tells us that American’s can and will fill these jobs. There were times in our history that there was imposed a moratorium on immigration of ANY sort and the jobs that were filled by them did not cause an economic disaster like you predict.
Your implication that this would cause a terrible labor expense that would economically castrate the country, inflation you claim, would be the end result is a standard scare tactic that plays directly into the hands of those that wish to maintain a “cheap workforce”. Again, due to the fact that the repatriation of illegals back to their country of origin, over time, would not cause the inflationary disaster that you claim, proves your argument as specious.
As for the 300 plus billion dollars you claim is an exaggerated figure from some right winger, I find it interesting that anything stated by someone to the right of your obvious hero Joseph Stalin it is not to be believed, but it is okay for you to quote NPR an admittedly left wing media outlet, although being careful to reword your statements so as not to make it easy to see where you got your information, as if it were gospel, it is far more biased than my multi-source account.
Actually once again mon ami you are way off base accusing me of using Fair as a source, I actually got those figures DIRECTLY from the U.S. Department of education. I will though give you credit that you are correct that part of that figure was arrived at due to U.S. born children of illegals. However that does not change the fact that the interpretation and use of the current 14th amendment is being misused and therefore the cost is still something that we should not be incurring.
Talking about lacking originality - nice rewording of a NPR article which as you claim about my numbers are biased and incomplete in its description of the issue. Here is What Dr. Borjas Professor of Economics and social policy at the JFK School of Government, Harvard University has to say about the numbers.
"The study of the trends in the earnings of native workers over the 1960-2000 period indicates that immigration has indeed harmed their economic opportunities. The effect on wages, however, differs across education groups and race groups. For example, the immigrant influx that entered the country between 1980 and 2000 lowered the wage by 7.4 percent for high school dropouts, by 3.6 percent for college graduates, and by around 2 percent for both high school graduates and workers with some college. Of course, the impact is much larger for some specific experience groups within each educational category. Similarly, although this immigrant influx lowered the wages of white native workers by 3.5 percent, it lowered the wage of native-born blacks by 4.5 percent, and of native-born Hispanics by 5 percent."
And as you see that study is based on 1980 – 2000 which was nowhere near the illegal immigration numbers we have today and subsequently a fraction of lost wages and suppressed wages for citizen workers, and your figure of 10 % is also bogus in that the actual figure is 13% or better considering the difference in overall illegal population in relation to what it was then. When these figures are applied to the wage earning over a period of 2000 – 2006 you would find that in fact it exceeds the number Lou Dobbs stated, it is more like 209 Billion.
Your suggestion that illegals are affecting “mostly high school dropouts” is an interesting statement as well and gives away your stance as a typically elitist liberal. So you are discounting and saying that the low income AMERICAN’S are a nominal number so it is no big deal. I quake at your audacity and utter lack of compassion for the LEGAL citizens in favor of the criminal immigrants that have taken jobs away from them. You may also want to explain to one of my neighbors why he cannot get work because he was replaced by two illegal construction workers. It is obvious to me that you do not live in the real world and buy into the very removed rich liberal elitist view of what the world is.
Lastly my “crackpot notion” of implementing a sever penalty for illegal immigrant rapists, thieves, and drug dealers, is what we need in this country today. The so-called compassion that we have been lulled into believing will somehow ingratiate us to other countries has in fact made us the laughing stock of the world. The sad truth is unless we impose such restrictions on the truly unlawful element that comes here to commit such crimes they will keep coming due to the fact that our society, being free, allows certain aspects of this type of person to flourish.
You my friend are looking at the world though rose colored glasses and not owning up to the reality of how others live or think about our country, nor do you know what is truly going on in the streets of this country, from crime to the work place. I suggest you spend some time talking to the blue collar workers from the 45 year old construction guy to the low income high school or college kid that can’t get work due illegals taking the jobs they once relied on to live or pay for their schooling.
Thank you for your thick skin and fighting spirit, although (to get another jab in quickly) I think you ought to rename your blog “Just My Fringe Opinion”! ;-)
The comment on Mr. Buchanan was made without judgment really, as I respect him as a commentator although I often disagree with him. He does connect at a visceral level with certain types of people however, but he has never gained much national support despite years of speaking and campaigning, one NH primary aside. The term “Paleoconservative” is not mine and I had not heard of it until the Wikipedia article, which I suggest you read and then comment. I don’t know if “Paleoconservative” is common or accepted but a quick Google of the term returns almost 40,000 hits, so there you go.
Most undocumented workers DO pay taxes – your own source, CIS.org, indicates that they pay $16 billion out of $26 billion due (maybe now you’d like to discredit CIS.org?) That is more than half, 61% in fact, which I think qualifies as “most”. The 55%-60% figure I used can be sourced directly to economists and think tanks, like CIS.org and the Pew Research Center. A quick Google should confirm and it is not a disputed point among respected researchers. Which brings me to a side point. It seems that when statistics don’t back up your claims, you resort to speculation and gut-feeling in the face of facts, often your own facts you’ve brought to the table. Here is a case in point. You cited the CIS.org article (not me) in which it CLEARLY states that most undocumented workers pay taxes. Yet at an emotional level, you can’t accept it, so you speculate on other schemes.
I don’t deny there is a lot of “under the table” work, but that is true across the board, although for undocumented workers, it is very, very high – 40% of illegals! That is a problem, I admit. Most illegals are not undocumented workers per se, they are really “forged document workers”. This is driven by employers. There are very many legitimate companies in desperate need of cheap labor, but they will not deal with undocumented workers – from an accounting and compliance point of view, it is just not feasible at the scale we are talking about. 7 million workers are a lot of workers and you just cannot hide those folks under the table. If you do a little research in what employment documents are required and how easily and inexpensive they are to procure, I think you will agree the 55-60% figure is real, despite how you may “feel” about it.
Regarding the “overnight” disappearance, your hostility to this workforce is clear (“criminal immigrants”) and it is not much of a leap to conclude that if you could wish them away, you would. In fact, your only objection to forced, mass deportation is cost. You don’t object for either economic or humanitarian reasons and I doubt you will. History does not suggest Americans will fill these jobs (at least for the reason that this is historically unprecedented, correct?) and no researcher advocates this position, not even your CIS.org. You can claim this position, but again, you do so as speculation. You are entitled to your opinion I guess, but there are just too many of these workers, the economy has grown too much, and Americans do not seem much interested in cleaning offices, cutting grass, busing tables, slaughtering livestock, or digging ditches. Btw, by all accounts immigrants seem to be hard working, diligent, and motivated – they came to America to purse the American dream and they are succeeding. Good for them!
If you suddenly remove 12 million inexpensive laborers, with no ready replacement supply, then cheap labor will be a premium. That is inflationary pressure. If you do it “over time”, and I don’t know what span of time you mean, then perhaps the pressure is elongated or reduced. I don’t know, but it strikes me as impractical in any event. The economy has already expanded and accommodated these workers. They are here for good and for the good of the nation.
Earlier you thought I was a neo-con and now I am a Stalin communist. Maybe they are all the same to you. I don’t know what NPR article you are referring to as I read original sources – studies, academic papers, government reports and the like. Perhaps NPR did the same, but if you look at the Manhattan Institute, CIS.org, and Pew Research I think you will find my corroboration. I try to avoid the easy grab as it leads to mistakes like citing a Lou Dobbs remark in a CNN transcript as fact. But don’t worry, it looks like lots of bloggers fell into that trap.
You can pass judgment on the phrase “high school dropout” if you like and I am sure it appeals to your gut-feeling on this issue. You are truly a champion of the working man and I would not be surprised to see a John Edwards bumper sticker on your car. However, once again, even your own citation of Dr. Borjas (you really should branch out beyond CIS.org!) indicates the impact is greatest to the high school dropout, so thank you for the vindication.
Also, please note that Dr. Borjas is not differentiating between the legal and illegal immigration (another misrepresentation by you) and he never uses the word “illegal” (please be more careful – that article is not even about illegals – but immigration in general). I would agree that legal immigrants, who tend to be professional and educated, have a big impact on wages, but they always have.
And be careful whose bed you climb into. Dr. Borjas wants 500,000 legal immigrants every year, so long as they are the highest skilled, and to block the low-skilled immigrant from entering the U.S. So that means high paid, skilled Americans will continually be replaced by lower priced legal foreigners. This is a constant, downward pressure on Americans and their wages in the best jobs. But, there will be plenty of low paying, low skilled jobs, and the really good jobs will be under constant attack from legal immigrants. That’s some America you envision!! Thanks but no thanks, Mr. Cambio, I’d like to save the best jobs for Americans.
So, no one denies that immigrants, illegal or not, suppress wages. That is fact. The question is how much, and in particular what is the impact and harm of the low-skilled illegal segment of the immigration population. This is in dispute among respected researchers, despite your emotion, as is how much this is offset by gains to the economy, which benefit many. If you do some research here, I think you will find many differing opinions. I can’t find anyone suggesting anywhere near $200 billion and Dr. Borjas does not. If you can, please cite.
When you conclude, “…figures are applied to the wage earning over a period of 2000 – 2006 you would find that in fact it exceeds the number Lou Dobbs stated, it is more like 209 Billion”, you are making this up. Besides misreading Borjas, this is sheer speculation, or perhaps you got your calculator out and multiplied enough numbers together until you hit the jackpot. That is different than true research, you’d agree, and I will await your citation of a real source. You won’t find one, but Google away. It’s hard to believe that FAIR or CIS.org can’t conjure up something remotely close, but your inability to produce something here is telling.
I want to address your anecdote about the neighbor who was replaced by undocumented workers, as I suspect that is informing your opinion more than any Googled economic statistics. I have no doubt it is true, but let me tell you a story about my town. There is a man who started a landscaping business. He has four crews, mostly Brazilians, about 16 in total. He has a few Americans as supervisors and a bookkeeper to do billing. He works hard, makes a good living and charges his customers a fair rate. Without a supply of low-skill labor his business does not exist. There is no reliable and steady supply of Americans willing to cut grass, not along the eastern seaboard anyways. So this man has grown a new business, contributed to the GNP, bought new trucks and landscaping equipment, employs Americans in higher paying supervisory positions, and provides employment to low skill workers that are eager and willing to provide it. This is a great story my friend. This is a story that is repeated thousands of times across America. I hope your neighbor finds work quickly.
I would like to point you to an article here:
http://www.hartfordinfo.org/
issues/documents/immigrants/
htfd_courant_051206.asp
It is an interesting article that also raises the social issues that concern you with hospitals, but I would particularly ask you to read the direct quotes of Mark Sellew, the owner of Pride Corner Farms.
I don’t think you can really make an economic case. Even among folks whose career is to study this, there is no clear conclusion, so your premise “Cost of Illegal Immigration” is an interesting discussion topic, but cannot be resolved.
I agree on the change to the 14th amendment and some laws should be tightened up. We have to do something about the hospitals and medical care in general. I agree that the hospital issue needs a solution and quick – your long term anti-immigration policies will not come in time for these hospitals, so you better think up something else if you want to save them. There is heartbreaking anecdotal evidence of people being hurt by immigration, like your neighbor, but there is so much positive, and I see it and read about it every day, that I don’t think the solution is to get as many immigrants out of the country as fast as we can. I think some kind of path-to-citizenship program, like John McCain’s thoughtful bill a year or so ago, is warranted and solves a lot of the problems. It gets all of these folks on the books, makes sure all the laws apply to them, and gets them paying their taxes, car insurance, and health insurance.
Yes, some form of amnesty. That is your solution, Mr Cambio. You are welcome.
Again you miss the obvious Anon, the CIS, which uses actual government figures, accounts for WORKING illegal immigrants it does not account for those that are here, and NOT working. How many illegals have come here already pregnant knowing that they can use the 14th amendment to suck off the government teat? How many come here to sell drugs and thieve? We are not talking about just 40% of all the illegals but forty percent of working illegals. No matter how you toss it the vast majority of illegals in this country do NOT pay taxes.
I think that you have bought into the emotional rhetoric without using a little common sense and those like McCain have played you like a fiddle.
We can go on and on with this debate, but I am afraid that we will just have to agree that we disagree.
I have enjoyed the repartee and also have to say you arguments although fraught with half-truths and emotional garbage where well thought out and enjoyable. I will also admit that I intentionally go to extremes to get people to find the middle ground and I am happy that you have participated in the dialog that I so enjoy.
May God bless you Anon, and if you wish to divulge who you really are to me alone, and continue this dialog off line, which I would be happy to continue, please e-mail me at pcambio@verizon.net.
Mr. Cambio, it has been interesting debating with you and I am glad to see that the working immigrant is not an issue for you. I agree that criminals are bad, so there is our common ground.
I remain,
Anonymous.
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